path: root/2008/september08.txt

20:00  * NeddySeagoon calls the meeting to order
20:00  * musikc is updating the bug with her comments
20:00 <@NeddySeagoon> Roll call dmwaters tsunam  
20:02 <@dmwaters> NeddySeagoon: i'm here
20:03 <@quantumsummers|c> anyone spy tsunam?
20:03 <@NeddySeagoon> dmwaters, thanks - we are quorate, with 3 out of4
20:03 <@NeddySeagoon> lets start anyway
20:04 < musikc> bug #236863 updated if interested
20:04 < Willikins> musikc: https://bugs.gentoo.org/236863 "Tracker Bug for the bylaws of the Gentoo Foundation Inc."; Gentoo Linux, Unspecified; NEW; neddyseagoon@g.o:trustees@g.o
20:04 <@NeddySeagoon> 1 Appointments
20:05 <@fmccor> musikc, I'm good with that.
20:05 <@NeddySeagoon> We are pleased to announce the appointments of dmwaters as a trustee in place of tgall and quantumsummers as sec, and our very first non trustee officer 
20:06  * quantumsummers|c wishes to thank the board of trustees for the opportunity.
20:06 <+rane> congrats guys
20:06 <@NeddySeagoon> 2. Introductions take a bow please dmwaters and quantumsummers. Say a few words to introduce yourselves
20:07  * quantumsummers|c bows
20:07 <@NeddySeagoon> moving on ...  3 Actions From the Last Meeting
20:07 <@dmwaters> My name is deedra waters, I've been a gentoo developer for a quite a while, and served on the board for almost 2 terms in the past
20:08 <@NeddySeagoon> thank you 
20:08 <@NeddySeagoon> Gentoo Foundation Banking - tsunam
20:09 <@NeddySeagoon> as he's not here, thats a bye ... but we do know that tsunam is expecting forms from the bank 'soon'.
20:09 <@quantumsummers|c> can I jump in here re:CPA?
20:09 <@NeddySeagoon> sure
20:09 <@quantumsummers|c> ok
20:10 <@quantumsummers|c> well, I have been in informal negotiations with a firm that specializes in non-profits
20:10 <@quantumsummers|c> I have worked with these people for ~3 years now
20:11 <@quantumsummers|c> basically, to take this further I need a decent guestimate regarding the foundations fiscal situation
20:11 <@quantumsummers|c> better yet, an anual report
20:11 <@quantumsummers|c> *annual
20:11 <@quantumsummers|c> however, they are amenable to our cause
20:11 <@quantumsummers|c> & interested in working with us
20:12 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, please discuss that directly with tsunam - there are scans of our annual reports around but I'm not sure if its what you need
20:12 <@quantumsummers|c> my only reservation is their lack of experience dealing with OSS non-profits, but then I think the legal filings are the same regardless
20:12 <@quantumsummers|c> NeddySeagoon: I will bring it up to him
20:13 <@quantumsummers|c> seems like they need to know the volume of transactions in order to judge the time commitment
20:13 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, an email to trustees@ then poke hime to read it ..
20:13 -!- fragalot [n=services@gentoo/user/FamousToaster] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
20:13 <@quantumsummers|c> could cost anywhere from free to ~$120/month
20:13 <@quantumsummers|c> will do re:poke, NeddySeagoon
20:13 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, I think its pretty low ... but tsunam has the numbers
20:13 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, As an estimate, figure pretty low folume
20:14 <@quantumsummers|c> yes, that was my initial thought
20:14 <@quantumsummers|c> no payroll, so that will make things easier
20:14 <@NeddySeagoon> yep
20:15 <@quantumsummers|c> thats it for CPA at this time
20:15 <@NeddySeagoon> dmwaters, the next item concerns you as everyone else is ok with it Trustees and Foundation Article For the GMN - (On hold while we are under strength)
20:16 <@NeddySeagoon> dmwaters, I'll give you a link to a sample later - its on hold until we replace wltjr
20:16 <@dmwaters> NeddySeagoon: ok
20:16 <@NeddySeagoon> Next action - International Licencing For Gentoo Merchandise - fmccor
20:17 <@fmccor> As you have seen, I'm asking Renat for introductions to lawyers he knows who do this sort of thing.
20:17 <@fmccor> He has interned with a couple, ans should be getting back to me this week.
20:18 <@fmccor> He claimed he needed time to get back into the law student mode, and such.
20:18 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, I've jusr dropped him from the trustees@ alias, should we add him back ?
20:18 <@fmccor> Probably doesn't matter as long as I can reach him at @gentoo.org
20:19 <@fmccor> I suspect he's more likely to read personal email anyway.
20:19 <@NeddySeagoon> sounds like hes well into lawyer mode ... waiting for it to get to the top of the inbox :) 
20:19 <@fmccor> :)
20:19 <@NeddySeagoon> I'll leave him off trustees@
20:19 <@fmccor> If he's in true lawyer mode, that'll never happen. :)
20:19 <@quantumsummers|c> may I ask what sort of law expertise we are looking for?
20:20 <@NeddySeagoon> Fix name and address on IPR/trademark documents, - needs a bank account to pay the fees 
20:20 <@fmccor> International licensing agreements --- we want to license people in other countries to sell our stuff.
20:20 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, right.
20:21 <@NeddySeagoon> and make money from it ourselves ...
20:21 <@quantumsummers|c> indeed
20:21 <@fmccor> I'm ready to move based on the last meeting as soon as we have access to our funds.
20:21 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, thanks.
20:22 <@NeddySeagoon> Clarify Trustee/Officer roles to enable a Trustee/Officer role split ... fmccor you brought this up at the end of the last meeting
20:22 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, Yes.  Here goes ...
20:22 <@NeddySeagoon> It was getting late here, so was held over ...
20:23 <@fmccor> Under the bylaws, these meetings are chaired by the Board chairman, or by the President if none.
20:23 <@fmccor> I think we should designate NeddySeagoon as the Chairman of the board (and me as vice chairman) so that we can split off the
20:24 <@fmccor> President and Vice president from the trustees without losing control of our own meetings.
20:24 <@fmccor> There is another advantage:
20:24 <@NeddySeagoon> I see. separate names for each office/trustee position, so they can be split but the trustees always retain control 
20:24 <@fmccor> During all this banking mess, one of the problems was that NeddySeagoon is not a US resident.  But that's because he's the President of the Foundation.
20:25 <@fmccor> If someone else had been president and NeddySeagoon the chairman of the board, that would never have come up.
20:25 <@dmwaters> hmmm
20:26 <@fmccor> Right now, neither the president nor the vice president actually does anything; the board is doing it all (except for secretary now).
20:26 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, exactly.
20:27 <@fmccor> Right now, you would keep both positions, but if something like the bank problems came up again, we could avoid it without actually changing anything.
20:27 <@quantumsummers|c> does the board have any contact with the board of, for example, the linux foundation or fsf, to see how they handle these matters?
20:27 <@fmccor> President acts at the direction of the board anyway.
20:28 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, that sounds like something to sort out on trustees@  care to write it up in some detail so we can discuss/vote on a motion next meeting ?
20:28 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, Yes.  If you don't see something next week, beat up on me for it.
20:28 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, wltjr opened discussions with one of the BSD foundations ... we need to keep that alive
20:29 <@fmccor> Anyone else feel free to express an opinion, too.
20:29 <@quantumsummers|c> indeed, it may be beneficial to open dialog with a few of the prominent non-profits in the OSS world
20:29 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor put it on -nfp then.  No need to keep it to ourselves
20:29 <@fmccor> Will do.
20:30 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, I'll forward you the email exchange I have ... like I say, its early days
20:30 <@quantumsummers|c> ok
20:30 <@quantumsummers|c> thanks
20:30 <@quantumsummers|c> mind if I make some attempts?
20:31 <@fmccor> Please do.
20:31 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, I was hoping you would offer ... we need someone to follow up.  Please do
20:31 <@NeddySeagoon> 4 Open Bugs Assigned to Trustees
20:32 <@NeddySeagoon> 177966 Clarify Foundation page on external entities ...  I never ubderstood this one
20:32 <@NeddySeagoon> !bug 177966
20:32 < Willikins> NeddySeagoon: https://bugs.gentoo.org/177966 "Clarify Foundation page on external entities"; Gentoo Foundation, Proposals; NEW; wolf31o2@g.o:trustees@g.o
20:32 <@fmccor> I don't know what this one is about
20:33 <@quantumsummers|c> my take is that its about how gentoo will comply with law, but more to the point about how gentoo will interact with donors
20:33 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, I think we can add a comment to point to the bylaws and close it.  I'll look at it during the week
20:34 <@NeddySeagoon> The bylaws are our limitations
20:34 <@fmccor> OK
20:34 <@NeddySeagoon> 217511 The Gentoo Store is Out of Date - musikc
20:34 < musikc> hiya
20:34 <@NeddySeagoon> !bug 217511
20:34 < musikc> yes it is
20:34 < Willikins> NeddySeagoon: https://bugs.gentoo.org/217511 "The Gentoo Store is Out of Date"; Gentoo Foundation, Proposals; NEW; neddyseagoon@g.o:trustees@g.o
20:34 < musikc> whats up with that? LOL
20:35 <@quantumsummers|c> (gentoo throwing star belt buckle)
20:35 <@quantumsummers|c> :D
20:35 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, you were going to fix it, or see if PR could help 
20:35 < musikc> sorry quantumsummers|c, i didnt find any online stores for that :-P
20:35 <@quantumsummers|c> ah, well, lemme see what I can find, worse case I know a blacksmith or two
20:36 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, For decapitating (Larry the) cows?
20:36 < musikc> i spoke to dberkholz only this week (newborn = ! extra time) and he had no personal interest in doing it but said he'd be fine with PR doing it
20:37 <@quantumsummers|c> I would be willing to assist here as well
20:37 < musikc> what i'd like to do is this... ive sent an email to pr@ to solicite some interest, i'd like to get the current store up to shape, and find someone to hand over maintaining it in PR, possibly recruit some help for PR in the process if not enough interest
20:37 <@NeddySeagoon> As its an ongoing thing, keeping it up to date and so on, I think the foundation should form a storekeepers project
20:37 < musikc> a lot of what i hear about the store just isnt true
20:37 <@quantumsummers|c> what do you hear
20:37 < musikc> people say cafepress doesnt ship internationally... well they do
20:38 < musikc> people say cafepress doesnt offer options... well they do, its just they arent listed on *our* store
20:38 <@NeddySeagoon> yep - there has been some correspondence on -nfp about that
20:38 <@quantumsummers|c> sounds like a sw update is needed
20:38 < musikc> now i will admit cafepress is expensive, but i looked at another popular option and it's just as expensive as well
20:38 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, we pulled 2006.0 ...
20:38 <@quantumsummers|c> no, I meant the sw that runs the store
20:38 < musikc> so i think that any solution that 'doesnt make it til you order it' is going to be more expensive than if we ran our own print shop and store
20:39 <@quantumsummers|c> err, that the store runs on
20:39 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, are you saying cafepress is out of date or just our store on cafepress?
20:39 < musikc> cafepress offers some neat things id like to see in our store tbh
20:39 <@quantumsummers|c> bingo
20:39 < musikc> LOL, quantumsummers|c, it was an A or B question :-P
20:40 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, I don't think we want to run our own store ... thats a big overhead. Just licence cafepress or whoever to do it
20:40 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, no no no, nor do i.
20:40 <@quantumsummers|c> if some popular options are not visible on our store we are out of date, that is what I meant
20:40 < musikc> just saying thats why i think ppl say its expensive, it could be cheaper but wouldnt be worth it for us.
20:40 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, i totally agree
20:40 -!- pva is now known as pva|afk
20:40 < musikc> like long sleeve tshirts... come on, no reason those arent there
20:41 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, speadshirt have them
20:41 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, so does cafepress :-P
20:41 < musikc> its just WE didnt add it to our lil subsection of cafepress, our store if you will
20:41 < musikc> and it'd be soooooooo easy to add it!
20:42 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc and CDs and DVDs ... it needs a maintainer
20:42 < musikc> not really, here's why i say that...
20:42 < musikc> no one actually bought them. the last time they were updated was when they were finally dropped b/c there were not enough orders to even compensate for the cost of shipping the media to cafepress
20:42 < musikc> so it seems like a waste to me
20:43 < musikc> however, we could talk to agaffney re: release engineering but i really think Gentoo is in for a reality check there (my personal opinion)
20:43 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, we never tried a DVD but I heard that about the CDs
20:43 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, cafepress doesnt offer DVD
20:44 <@quantumsummers|c> imo, skip the install media, anyone that wants to run gentoo will DL the iso they need
20:44 <@fmccor> I think so, too.
20:44 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, thats true in the USA and Europe, in which case there is no point in doing media there
20:44 <@NeddySeagoon> To sum up then ...
20:45 <@quantumsummers|c> however, the things that can generate revenue for the project are cool t-shirts & schwag.
20:45 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, agree totally on that
20:45 <@fmccor> Also.
20:45 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, will talk to PR about taking on the store and maintaining it, recruiting if required
20:45 <@quantumsummers|c> so, not to cut off NeddySeagoon, but
20:46 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, do you have any objections to me updating it ASAP?
20:46 <@quantumsummers|c> some manner of design contest, coupled with a big pr push could really help drive up revenue in the store
20:46  * musikc steps away from quantumsummers|c who is reading her mind
20:46 <@NeddySeagoon> If there is no interest, the foundation will look at staffing it, possibly with a 'committee'
20:47 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, Nope ... pleasedo
20:47 <@quantumsummers|c> hmm, musikc, how difficult is it to get new designs put up/
20:47 <@quantumsummers|c> ?
20:47 < musikc> cake walk
20:47 <@quantumsummers|c> lovely
20:47 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, after its updated ... it needs regular revies and maintainance ... so I would like to see a long term solution
20:48 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, i agree. something quarterly would be good.
20:48 <@quantumsummers|c> ok, well I have a contact with a really nice design group here that has interest in pro bono designs
20:48 <@NeddySeagoon> reviwes*
20:48 < musikc> like a review for trustees to see how the store is doing in a meeting once a quarter?
20:48 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, yep sounds good
20:49 < musikc> if we wrap up the 'update the store bit' i have more re: the store
20:49 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, we have to post quarterly accounts ... so round about that time 
20:49 < musikc> may i proceed?
20:49 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, please do
20:50 < musikc> who in trustees is checking for use of our IP on sites, such as cafepress?
20:50 < musikc> i found 3 sites there that are using our logos and that is a violation, a quick email to cafepress should take those items down.
20:50 < musikc> http://www.cafepress.com/linux_gentoo
20:50 < musikc> http://www.cafepress.com/ovensia
20:50 < musikc> http://www.cafepress.com/1337_stuff
20:50 < musikc> now i know they can say 'gentoo' but they cannot use our logo
20:51 <@NeddySeagoon> I guess the answer is nobody ... if I find one, I ask them to please stop or come to some arrangement 
20:51 <@NeddySeagoon> yep
20:52 < musikc> i know wolf31o2 used to regularly search popular sites for such things. is it possible someone on the foundation could take on that role?
20:52 <@quantumsummers|c> that first link has a ton of cool stuff
20:52 < musikc> hehe
20:52 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, aye... and isnt giving us any % of their profits for using our logo
20:52 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, sounds like a secertarial task 
20:52  * musikc giggles
20:52 <@quantumsummers|c> now if the people responsible for those stores are making money, they could be held liable very easily
20:53 <@fmccor> Actually, I think we don't want to stop them, we want them to get permission, perhaps give us a cut, and note the Gentoo is a (R) trademark.
20:53 <@NeddySeagoon> we need to track who we have arrangements with too
20:53 <@quantumsummers|c> indeed
20:53 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, i can tell you they are b/c i know what the actual cost of those items are, so they are marking them up
20:54 <@quantumsummers|c> well then, wonder if I can find a phone number
20:54 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, thats the only reason these sites exist
20:54 < musikc> fmccor, that's fine if you wish to let them, but we should get something out of it. % of profits, maybe alos a link to our store, and an agreement that they will not sell the same items as us
20:54 <@quantumsummers|c> that group is ripping off everyone, lol
20:54 < musikc> http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/cup.aspx
20:54 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, as musikc says, emails all round, copy to trustees@
20:55 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, i think you could email cup@cafepress.com and ask for help contacting those stores
20:55 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, we don't all want to send emails, are you going to do it ?
20:55 <@quantumsummers|c> sure, pleasure
20:56 <@quantumsummers|c> imo, gentoo is the only group that should be selling gentoo stuff
20:56 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, thanks. report back to the next meeting.
20:56 <@quantumsummers|c> we could create an avenue with designers to facilitate their work & split some profit, thus generating more revenue for the project.
20:57 <@quantumsummers|c> I will report back as soon as I have info.
20:57 <@NeddySeagoon> heh ... an English local council is calling some of its services gentoo ... but no relation to linux
20:57 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, By the way, this is one issue our pro bono IP lawyer mentioned --- we need for those vendors to note that it's Gentoo(R) --- not on the T-shirts, perhaps, but someplace on the site.
20:57 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, in the past we stopped everyone who used any of our IP (the pretty G logo or the Gentoo Linux one)
20:57 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, any more on the shop ?
20:57 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, nah, let me role with what we've got, harrass the PR ppl, and try to drum up some interest in the store in general
20:58 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, I agree with that in the USA
20:58 <@NeddySeagoon> thanks musikc 
20:58 < musikc> will send an email to either -core or -dev and see if ppl want to chat about it on #-pr
20:58 <@quantumsummers|c> NeddySeagoon: you disagree outside the US?
20:58 <@quantumsummers|c> err, nm, we still need to sort out the int'l stuff
20:59 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, International IP law is a rather young field, it seems.
20:59 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, do you guys have the login credentials or do you want me to ask the old store maintainer who is playing with his PS3 presently LOL
20:59 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, yes - we want to licence stuff outside the USA.  We already have a few agreements and spreadshirt has a deal with gentoo.e.V  who were set up before the foundation.
21:00 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, hehe.  We got the paypal details, I'm not sure about the store 
21:01 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, i'll go throw something at wolf then :)
21:01 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc thanks
21:01 <@NeddySeagoon> 236863 Bylaws Tracker Bug
21:01 <@NeddySeagoon> !bug 236863
21:01 < Willikins> NeddySeagoon: https://bugs.gentoo.org/236863 "Tracker Bug for the bylaws of the Gentoo Foundation Inc."; Gentoo Linux, Unspecified; NEW; neddyseagoon@g.o:trustees@g.o
21:03 <@fmccor> The comments from musikc and me are more than cosmetic.
21:04 <@NeddySeagoon> do we need to discuss this or just think about a bylaws update in early Jan 09 ?
21:04 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, agreed
21:04 <@NeddySeagoon> when do you see they need to come into force ?
21:04 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, i'd like to discuss it. not sure why wait to updat bylaws?
21:04 <@fmccor> The membership changes?  Soonish
21:04 < musikc> and can share the devrel draft on the staff section
21:05 < musikc> http://dev.gentoo.org/~rane/staffers.xml
21:05 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, please kick off the discussion
21:05 < musikc> i think there are two parts, one is WIP in my eyes, visible by quantumsummers being a dev now
21:05 <@NeddySeagoon> yes
21:05 < musikc> we agree that officers and trustees should be eligible to be staffer devs
21:06 < musikc> and want to update some docs to reflect how being a staffer works and what we consider to be staffers
21:06 < musikc> this will avoid ppl from being retired due to inactivity if they work on the foundation as well as allow new foundation roles to have access to appropriate areas, like the foundation page
21:07 <@NeddySeagoon> thats very useful
21:07 < musikc> quantumsummers|c is our first but he can comment as to the process. i suspect it went pretty smoothly
21:07 -!- Arfrever [n=Arfrever@gentoo/user/arfrever] has quit [Client Quit]
21:07 <@fmccor> What about current developers like rl03 who are helping the Foundation but have no official title in it?
21:07 <@NeddySeagoon> I would like to open foundation membership based on merit/interest 
21:07 <+rane> we still have to figure out what happens when Foundation appoints someone who Devrel doesn't want to have a @gentoo.org
21:08 <@quantumsummers|c> everything went really nicely
21:08 < musikc> rane, any person that foundation appoints to any role still has to go through recruitment.
21:08 <@fmccor> rane, We'd probably want to know why --- it might influence our decision.
21:09 <+rane> there are people who were removed from gentoo and who retained their foundation memberships
21:09 <+rane> they are a good example for this policy
21:09 <@NeddySeagoon> rane, true
21:09 <@fmccor> rane, true.
21:09 < musikc> fmccor, perhaps someone forcibly removed would not be approved to be a dev merely based on their foundation role
21:09 <@fmccor> musikc, rane got it.
21:09 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, the project has the last say there
21:10 <+rane> do we have any law stating somebody removed from the project may be subject for removal from the foundation as well?
21:10 <+rane> and why not? :-)
21:10 <@fmccor> No to the first.
21:10 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, did you read my long rambling email ? 
21:10 < musikc> rane, there is something in bylaws about how foundation may revoke anyones membership
21:11 < musikc> rane, 4.9: Membership may be terminated by a majority vote of the board of trustees in the event that any member acts contrary to the purpose(s) of the Gentoo Foundation.
21:11 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, maybe
21:11 < musikc> LOL
21:11 < musikc> how long was it? i may have skimmed ;)
21:11 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, the bit about Indemnification at the end ...
21:12 <@quantumsummers|c> its is likely best practice to have a procedure coupling the project & foundation regarding forcible ejection
21:12 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, hehe, i found it
21:12 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, I think I disagree.
21:13 <@quantumsummers|c> proceed sit
21:13 <@quantumsummers|c> *sir
21:13 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, It would be good to share that with devs as soon as possible ... not wait a year or make it optional on voting
21:14 <@NeddySeagoon> Bylaws Section 12.1. Right to Indemnification for everyone else
21:14 <@NeddySeagoon> http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/BylawsAdopted.xml
21:14 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, I don't know that reasons for forcible removal from the project necessarily translate into reasons for removal from the Foundation if the person demonstrates a desire to help the foundation.
21:15 <@quantumsummers|c> yes I can imagine that case, fmccor
21:15 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, honestly that part was too legal imo
21:15 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, At the least, such a person should have the opportunity to make the case to us.
21:15 <@quantumsummers|c> ok
21:15 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, makes me wonder wtf the meaning was when i finish the paragraph
21:16 <@NeddySeagoon> One of the council is not a member of the foundation, so gets no benefit from Indemnification of members
21:16 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc it means if a member does something daft and gets sued, the foundation takes the hit
21:16 <@NeddySeagoon> provided the member acted in good faith (at the time)
21:17 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, you have one sentence with 196 words LOL
21:17 <@quantumsummers|c> that's legalese, nice job Neddy
21:17 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, its boiler plate from NM laws
21:17 <@quantumsummers|c> also, it means that if the foundation is sues, the members are not liable
21:17 <@fmccor> musikc, It's boilerplate that someone lifted from something.   (No, not from NM, but from mozilla or something like that).
21:17 <@quantumsummers|c> *is sued
21:17 <@quantumsummers|c> wow
21:18 <@fmccor> It's practically unreadable, but it means what NeddySeagoon said.
21:18 < musikc> i understand that it's boiler plate, however its a hard read for our average developer.
21:18 <@fmccor> It's hard to read for anyone.  
21:18 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, that para is the only benefit to membership
21:18 < musikc> so maybe a small lil note section that says "could be translated to mean ... " 
21:19 < musikc> again our average dev age is 20 i think
21:19 < musikc> im 30 and that hurt my head LOL
21:19 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, yeah, agreed.
21:19  * fmccor does not know why some lawyers are feel compelled to write like that --- it's easier just to steal something that's known to work than to make it readable.
21:19 <@quantumsummers|c> maybe an executive summary of the bylaws for the devs
21:19 <@fmccor> ^are feel^^feel^
21:19 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, careful, sounds like you keep getting signed up for more secretary tasks ;)
21:20 <@quantumsummers|c> it does, lol
21:20 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, so what brought up that section 12.1 to discussion?
21:20 < musikc> the fact that jokey isnt covered?
21:20 <@NeddySeagoon> anyway, if we are going to have an active foundation, I would like all devs to belong as soon as possible.
21:20 <@quantumsummers|c> jookey?
21:21 <@quantumsummers|c> *jokey
21:21 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, some devs, like kingtaco, deliberately avoided being a member
21:21 <@quantumsummers|c> arrrgh
21:21 <@tsunam> bah...
21:21 <@tsunam> so late =/
21:21 <@quantumsummers|c> hi tsunam
21:21 < musikc> i dont even recall why though LOL
21:21 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, one council member, who makes decisions for Gentoo is not a foundation member. If he gets sued, hes on his own
21:21 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, All it says:  If the Foundation acts a member to do something, the Foundation will take the hit if legal action results.
21:22 <@fmccor> musikc, NeddySeagoon brought it up.
21:22 <@quantumsummers|c> I understand the point well. I was asking about jokey.
21:22 < musikc> fmccor, yup. i just wasnt sure why LOL  thought i may have  missed a sentence somewhere :)
21:22 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, so it would be good to invite all devs to join early on
21:23 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, as in remove the 1 year pre-req?
21:23 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, yes
21:23 <@quantumsummers|c> this membership roster is kept someplace?
21:23  * musikc cant think of any problems with that
21:23 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, yes
21:23 <@quantumsummers|c> it appears that I am its keeper, qed role of sec
21:23  * fmccor agrees with it too --- works to everyone's belefit he thinks.
21:23 < musikc> anyone know why jokey isnt a member?
21:23 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, jmbsvicetto has it.
21:23 <@quantumsummers|c> ok
21:24 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, do you need an assistant already :)
21:24 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, If I have it on this system, I'll send it to you.
21:24 < musikc> jmbsvicetto went offline when the meeting started, may want to send him an email
21:24 <@quantumsummers|c> nah, I have interns, of course that is unless someone wants to volunteer
21:24 < musikc> well went offline = said bye ;)
21:24 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, hes not voted in a foundation election ... he should be offered though
21:24 <@quantumsummers|c> I'll see what he says about it
21:25 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, we all have the roster - its had one change since the Feb elections
21:25 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, sounds ... well sound to me. perhaps an email to -core to express the interest?
21:25 < musikc> i think we should still make it optional but explain that there are legal reasons ppl should consider it
21:26 <@fmccor> quantumsummers|c, I don't.  Remind me tomorrow and I can send it to you if no one else does.
21:26 <@NeddySeagoon> We need the trustees to agree on the principle first ... otherwise, agreed
21:26 <@quantumsummers|c> that is reasonable, can't force them
21:26 < musikc> ahhhh
21:26  * musikc found out why kingtaco didnt want to be a member
21:26 <@tsunam> oh?
21:26 < musikc> he didnt want to sign the copywrite infringement thing
21:27 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, whats that ?
21:27 < musikc> s/infringement/assignment
21:27 < musikc> the thing that says your work belongs to Gentoo
21:28 <@quantumsummers|c> hmm, gentoo is all gplv2 correct?
21:28 < musikc> i believe foundation stopped enforcing it a while ago, but he never wanted to join in case it was later brought back
21:28 <@quantumsummers|c> or creative commons attributuin
21:28 <@fmccor> Foundation doesn't enforce it so far as I know.
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, before the foundation, it was drobbins Gentoo Technologies Inc ...
21:29 < musikc> foundation USED to enforce it. kingtaco said he wouldnt sign hence wouldnt join. foundation stopped enforcing it and he never joined 'just in case'
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> It looks like we need to vote on scrapping the 1 year qualifying period for foundation membership ...
21:29 <@fmccor> It's not a requirement for membership now.
21:30 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, That's a bylaws change, I'd support it.
21:30 < musikc> hehe, i didnt say you guys would like it. just that i found out. :-P
21:30 -!- jokey [n=jokey@gentoo/developer/jokey] has joined #gentoo-trustees
21:30 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, dmwaters tsunam ... thoughts, votes ... ?
21:30  * musikc poked jokey re: his membership interest
21:31 <@tsunam> about changing membership from being a year to much less?
21:31  * jokey is interested
21:31 <@NeddySeagoon> to on being appointed as a dev
21:31 <@NeddySeagoon> optional ...
21:31  * jokey notes to never have opted out though
21:31 <@tsunam> hmm
21:31 <@tsunam> I no strong oposition to it
21:31 < musikc> jokey, old/current requirements are you have to actually vote in elections to become a member
21:31 <@NeddySeagoon> jokey, you have to opt in by voting in a trustee election (just now)
21:31 < musikc> however trustees are voting to say all devs should be able to be members UNLESS they opt out
21:32 <@NeddySeagoon> dmwaters,  ??
21:32 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, nope ... it would be optional on becomming a dev
21:32 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, so they have to ask nicely for it?
21:32 < musikc> new devs are always nice ;-)
21:32 < jokey> NeddySeagoon: ohkey, that seemed to have changed then as last time I talked about that to g2boojum all devs with +1year devship were foundation members automatically
21:33 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, we put the appication form in their dev welcome pack :)
21:33 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, It's something like a new section --- 4.5  Any active developer is eligible for membership by petitioning the trustees and ....
21:33 < musikc> wtf, i didnt get a dev welcome pack :(
21:33 <@quantumsummers|c> this membership needs to be more verbose/explicit
21:33 < musikc> jokey, it is, IMO, in your best interest that you look into becoming a member ASAP for legal coverage
21:33  * quantumsummers|c sends musikc a welcome basket of fruit & wine
21:33 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, theres a pile beside the dev lounge whippy ice cream machine :)
21:34 < musikc> see, i told you new devs are always nice :)
21:34 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, ya but rane ate it all so i didnt bother poking around :-P
21:35  * jokey wants a dev welcome pack and a form for signing up as foundation member as well
21:35 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, can you add some words to the tracker bug please, as we are agreed to carry this forward 
21:35 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, Yes.
21:35  * quantumsummers|c hands out another welcome pack
21:35 < musikc> jokey, i think you'll want to follow this bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=236863
21:35 <@NeddySeagoon> anything else on our bylaws tracker ?
21:36 < musikc> not at present. the bug stays open for new bylaws questions?
21:36 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, yes ... until we update the bylaws, then we close that bug and start another
21:37 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, im behind on my -nfp reading tbh
21:37 < musikc> been a bit busy
21:37 <@NeddySeagoon> moving on ... 5 Treasurers Report for FY ending 30 June 2008
21:37 <@quantumsummers|c> anyone mind if I step away for 5 mins?
21:37 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, your turn
21:37 <@quantumsummers|c> oh, nm
21:38 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: awaiting paperwork from capital one,
21:38 <@tsunam> need to update our irs info so that I can get a copy of the ss-4/ other paperwork to send to the bank in question
21:38 <@tsunam> paypal is a pain in the ass...
21:39 <@NeddySeagoon> updates to the quarterly reports page ?
21:39 <@quantumsummers|c> where is that?
21:39 <@tsunam> been trying to get the reports from paypal..but the system's been down 
21:39 <@tsunam> everytime I've tried (5 times at least this week)
21:39 <@tsunam> the report system
21:39 <@tsunam> not paypal
21:40 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, http://www.gentoo.org/foundation/en/funds.xml  links at the bottom
21:40 <@quantumsummers|c> musikc: does the store put $ into paypal?
21:40 <@quantumsummers|c> or how does that work?
21:40 <@tsunam> quantumsummers|c: no
21:40 <@quantumsummers|c> thanks NeddySeagoon
21:40 <@tsunam> quantumsummers|c: doesn't go directly to paypal
21:41 <@quantumsummers|c> tsunam: ok, bank then, direct deposit
21:41 <@tsunam> quantumsummers|c: still working on the bank
21:41 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, have you contacted paypal to confirm its their problem?
21:41 <@tsunam> and unknown if it can direct deposit
21:41 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: yep
21:41 <@tsunam> "we're working on it""
21:41 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, heh... like the cheque is in the post :)
21:41 <@quantumsummers|c> want me to crawl up their arse about this, I'd enjoy that.
21:41 <@tsunam> quantumsummers|c: nah
21:42 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, look loke you can't do much more
21:42 <@tsunam> quantumsummers|c: they've already had enough bitching from me, and I've gone up to their 3rd tier support :(
21:42 <@NeddySeagoon> like*
21:42 <@quantumsummers|c> ah, ok tsunam
21:42 <@tsunam> on the reports plus their incompentent abilities with banks
21:42  * quantumsummers|c is not surprised
21:42  * NeddySeagoon does not have paypal
21:43 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: I hard ever use mine so..and with good reason
21:43  * fmccor adds a proposed Section 4.5 to the tracker bug which allows andy developer to become a Foundation member by asking for it.
21:43 < musikc> back, ran out of lemonade ;)
21:43 <@NeddySeagoon> ok, lets move on ...
21:43 <@NeddySeagoon> 6. # While we do not have a policy on international merchandise, we have a number of applications to consider
21:44 <@NeddySeagoon> Tee Shirts for .cz ... they are offering 10% of the gross selling price, or $2 each to us 
21:44 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, we need to check on the store $. it USED to be setup so paypal wrote a check that was mailed to grant
21:45 <@quantumsummers|c> ah, ok musikc
21:45 < musikc> re: paypal... ive used them for years and honestly never had problems :(
21:46 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, cafepress does offer direct to paypal though
21:46 <@quantumsummers|c> ok
21:47 <@tsunam> musikc: They've restricted the gentoo account 5 times in the last year
21:47 <@quantumsummers|c> NeddySeagoon: are you talking about gentoo.cz ?
21:47 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, do we get in a mess with international licencing if we approve things piecemeal before we have leagal advice ?
21:47 <@fmccor> No, I don't think so.
21:47 < musikc> tsunam, oh i understand, just stating why it surprises me. even wolf had problems with his account being hijacked once and paypal put it all back rather quickly.
21:48 <@tsunam> musikc: *nods*
21:48 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, its from emtom.cz
21:49 <@NeddySeagoon> Tee Shirts for .cz ... they are offering 10% of the gross selling price, or $2 each to us 
21:49 <@quantumsummers|c> ah, to make the shirts
21:49 <@NeddySeagoon> yep
21:49 <@quantumsummers|c> sounds like a winner
21:49 <@NeddySeagoon> 10% sounds ok too
21:50 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, dmwaters fmccor  ... ok with this ?
21:50 <@quantumsummers|c> $20 a pop
21:50 <@quantumsummers|c> hmm
21:50 <@tsunam> sure
21:50 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, Main thing is that they have to mention someplace on their site that Gentoo is a trademark of the Gentoo foundation.
21:51 <@fmccor> And yes, I'm OK with it.
21:51 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, yes
21:51 <@NeddySeagoon> dmwaters, ^^
21:51 <@dmwaters> i'm ok with it
21:51 <@quantumsummers|c> NeddySeagoon: ?
21:52 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, what ?
21:52 <@quantumsummers|c> just asking for your vote
21:52 <@NeddySeagoon> I vote yes
21:52 <@quantumsummers|c> & recording them
21:52 <@NeddySeagoon> Nomally I have a casting vote, and don't vote unless its needed
21:52 <@quantumsummers|c> I see
21:54 <@NeddySeagoon> Projektfarm GmbH artwork use  ... want to put our logo on a teaser ... its a very small link and they cannot comply with the notice requirement on out web page to have the attribution on the same page as the logo
21:54 <@NeddySeagoon> Do we want to change the way we require attribution ?
21:54 <@fmccor> Can they put it someplace?
21:55 <@quantumsummers|c> what about the alt tect
21:55 <@quantumsummers|c> text
21:56 <@NeddySeagoon> on another page.  Other copyright holders appear to waive the attribution requirement for very small logos, others still have a second logo with reduced requirements 
21:57 -!- mpagano [n=mpagano@gentoo/developer/mpagano] has quit ["Goodbye, all"]
21:57 <@fmccor> I think we just need it someplace.
21:57 <@NeddySeagoon> see Re: Logo/Artwork Usage 2008.08.24
21:58 <@NeddySeagoon> on trustees@
21:58 < musikc> fmccor, maybe another page off the foundation page?
21:59 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, on the page the link points to perhaps ?
22:01 <@fmccor> That's fine with me.
22:01 <@NeddySeagoon> heres the problem   http://www.howtoforge.com/  they want to use logos to the left of the distro names
22:01 <@NeddySeagoon> replacing the current buttons
22:02 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, dmwaters ^^
22:02 <@quantumsummers|c> alt text would be appropriate in that case imo
22:02 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, alt text ?
22:03 <@tsunam> basically you hover and the text appears 
22:03 <@NeddySeagoon> ok
22:03 <@quantumsummers|c> yeah, what he said
22:03 <@fmccor> I have no problem with it.
22:03 <@NeddySeagoon> alt txt and on the target page then ?
22:04 <@quantumsummers|c> they should be using alt text anyway for w3c compliance
22:04 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, you happy with one, the other ... 
22:04 <@NeddySeagoon> dmwaters, ^^
22:04 <@tsunam> either would work
22:05 <@fmccor> It's to our advantage, after all.
22:05 <@dmwaters> I'd go with alt text if i'm following this correctly
22:05 <@fmccor> alt text is good.
22:05 <@NeddySeagoon> ok, so we want our copyright notice in the image alt txt  ?
22:05 <@fmccor> Yes
22:05 <@dmwaters> nod
22:06 <@quantumsummers|c> like this www.gentoo.org - logo is trademark of gentoo foundation
22:06 <@NeddySeagoon> ok
22:06 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, it will be whatever text our website requires now
22:06 <@quantumsummers|c> very well
22:07 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, or we have to fix the site ... we should probably do that anyway to add the alt txt thing
22:08 <@NeddySeagoon> others may want to follow
22:08 <@quantumsummers|c> indeed
22:08 <@NeddySeagoon> 7 Foundation Membership by Application
22:08 <@NeddySeagoon> I think we covered that - its been added to the bug
22:09 <@NeddySeagoon> 8 Any other business.
22:09 <@NeddySeagoon> dmwaters, Any other business ?
22:09 <@dmwaters> not that i can think of
22:09 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ^^^
22:09 <@tsunam> nope
22:09 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, ?
22:10 <@fmccor> No.  I added the petition thing it to the bug, a proposed new section 4.5 --- It might take another sentence, then we should just vote on it.
22:10 <+rane> what about rl03? does his level of involvement justify him being upgraded to a foundation officer or should he be retired from gentoo due to his inactivity?
22:10 <@NeddySeagoon> we should try to do that for next meeting
22:11 <@quantumsummers|c> I wish to propose an artwork contest. musikc does too, if I read her mind right. I will post to the trustees list, &/or -nfp for discussion.
22:11 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, care to answer rane 
22:11 <+rane> i'm asking cause he's probably waiting for your reply to the mail i've forwarded to you guys
22:11 <@fmccor> rane, I think as long as he's actively helping us, that qualifies for staff developer.
22:11 <+rane> and it's been a couple of days already
22:11 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, dont we have an artwork project?
22:11 <+rane> but is he actively helping?
22:11 <@quantumsummers|c> yes, contest
22:11 <@fmccor> rane, Yes.
22:11 <@NeddySeagoon> quantumsummers|c, -nfp if you want ideas from the community, trustees@ if it needs shaping first
22:11 <+rane> is he officially appointed?
22:12 <@fmccor> rane, He's providing us with introductions to people we need to talk with.
22:12 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, no, i recall i think it was cla that worked on it
22:12 < musikc> there was some contest a while back
22:12 <@NeddySeagoon> rane, no yet, no
22:12 <+rane> the only valid basis for a staffing accounts so far was official appointment as an officer (quantumsummers)
22:12 < musikc> i need to look to find the project
22:12 <+rane> if he's not appointed, i'm unsure whether he's eligible for a staffer account in gentoo
22:12 <@tsunam> fmccor: i respecfully disagree with you there
22:12 <@tsunam> I don't think its enough to be a developer still
22:12 <@fmccor> rane, Not right now, after all, at the moment he is a developer.
22:12 <@dmwaters> rane: userrel and devrel people could as staffers why can't rl3
22:13 <@dmwaters> count
22:13 <@NeddySeagoon> rane, can we postpone this discussion until October ?
22:13 <@fmccor> tsunam, if he gets upset and declines to help us, we lose, not him.
22:13 <+rane> fmccor, he would be retired if it wasn't for his involvement with the foundation since he has no activity in the project for months
22:13 <+rane> no commits for past 8 months
22:13 <@tsunam> fmccor: and being staff avoids that how?
22:13 <@tsunam> fmccor: theres no logic in that
22:13 <+rane> can we postpone? why not
22:13 <+rane> just please tell him that :-)
22:14 <+rane> cause he's waiting for a response from gentoo
22:14 < musikc> tsunam, the guy said, iirc, that he'd help IF he got to keep his address
22:14 <@fmccor> tsunam, He said he wanted to remain a developer because he was helping the foundation.
22:14 <@NeddySeagoon> rane, he has no official foundation office today but it might be good not to retire hime just now too 
22:14 <+rane> i forwarded his mail to trustees@
22:14 <@fmccor> I can't see telling him that no, we're retiring him but we still need his help.
22:15 <@tsunam> musikc: then that's a talk with infra about keeping a forward for him
22:15 <@tsunam> more then anything
22:15 <@tsunam> *points to daniel as an example of a perm forward*
22:15 < musikc> hmmm... that makes sense
22:15 < musikc> does he need to keep developer status or just want that email address?
22:15 <@tsunam> no need to be staff
22:15 <+rane> we have trouble cleaning perm forwards already
22:15 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, can we postpone until our next meeting ?   menawhile nothing changes 
22:16 <@tsunam> point being...I've yet to see a valid reason he needs to have the developer title
22:16 <+rane> i don't know if infra will agree to give them to people easily
22:16 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: sure
22:16 <@fmccor> tsunam, what's the harm?  He's a developer now --- just don't retire him at the moment.
22:16 <@NeddySeagoon> ok, we will postpone with rl03 until the October meeting
22:16 <+rane> his project involvement certainly isn't taht reason, if his foundation involvement isn't either then he just should be retired 
22:17 <@NeddySeagoon> Date of next meeting
22:17 <+rane> fair enough, it waited half a year already, can wait a few weeks more
22:17 <@tsunam> fmccor: lots of reasons...and your response is the same as if I would say..whats the harm in retiring him but allowing him to keep @gentoo address... he can still help as he see's fit
22:17 <@NeddySeagoon> Its either Sunday 19 Oct, or Mon 20th, do we want a Sun or Mon ?
22:17 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/artwork/index.xml
22:17 <@dmwaters> sunday
22:18 <@fmccor> Don't much care.
22:18 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, Sunday ?
22:18 <@tsunam> sure
22:19 <@quantumsummers|c> musikc: I was thinking more for t-shirts than wallpapers, etc. 
22:19 <@NeddySeagoon> DONM Sunday 19 Oct, 1900 UTC (thats my birthday  :(  )
22:19 <@quantumsummers|c> though it could be both
22:19 <@dmwaters> NeddySeagoon: hehe
22:20 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, i understand except think it'd be worthwhile to find people who may already have an expressed interest
22:20 <@quantumsummers|c> yes, you are right musikc
22:20 <@NeddySeagoon> Last Item ...     9. Open floor
22:20 <@quantumsummers|c> will contact & CC musikc
22:20 < musikc> quantumsummers|c, contact who?
22:20 <@quantumsummers|c> the artwork folks
22:20 < musikc> heh, i already have welp in IM ;)
22:21 <@NeddySeagoon> Oh, I have one more item ...
22:21 <@quantumsummers|c> well, feel free to ask him
22:21 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, ?
22:21 <@NeddySeagoon> I would like to table a motion to wish tsunam happy birthday tommow 
22:22 <@tsunam> thanks
22:22 <@quantumsummers|c> hey, three cheers for tsunam
22:22 <@dmwaters> tsunam: happy birthday
22:22 <@fmccor> tsunam, Enjoy. 
22:22 <@tsunam> will try
22:22 <@NeddySeagoon> Thats only an 1:30 min away here
22:23 <@tsunam> hehe
22:23 <@tsunam> few hours for me
22:23 <@NeddySeagoon> Any more for Open Floor ?
22:23 <@NeddySeagoon> Meeting closed ... thanks everyone